You can print some t shirts in white, and that goes to anybody who's shouting at you in the crowd.
And then you can print the same t shirt in black, and maybe the d j's wear that, and the staff at the radio station wear those.
You could have an intern stand at a gate and anybody who can, you know, name the lineup of the radio station, right? Maybe they get a black t shirt.
You make sure that the only people who get those are people that you know are fans.
Quite frankly, it's no more expensive because you're printing t shirts, but now you even viewed those black t shirts with a lot more value than the white t shirts.
Hello, and welcome to the Art of Community Conversations.
I'm your host.
My name is Seth Resler, and I am the founder of Community Marketing Revolution.
If this is the first time you're joining us for one of these conversations, here's what this is all about.
Charles Vogl is the author of the International Bestseller, The Art of Community.
There is a new Second Edition with 25% more content out, and we are talking to him about the seven principles of Community that he outlines in the book.
Now Charles is also the co author of Building Brand Communities.
A book I highly recommend.
He co wrote that with Carrie Melissa Jones, and it won an Acxiom business book gold medal.
His work has been used to develop leadership and programs at Google Airbnb Twitch, Amazon and the US Army.
He has also presented at the Yale Leadership Institute, the Harvard Law School and the Stanford Graduate School of Business, among others.
Charles, good to see you again.
I'm delighted to be back.
It's fun to do this with you.
Yeah.
So, uh, alright.
So we've been through a number of the principles of community that you outlined in the book.
And today, we are talking about the Cymbals principle.
So let's get right into it.
Let's talk about what the Cymbals principle is.
You say Cymbals are powerful tools in building community because they quickly remind us of our values, identity, and commitment in a community.
Using Cymbals is a way to make communities stronger.
They can conveniently stand in for many words.
So give me an example of a symbol in a community that we may have seen or may be familiar with? Well, my goodness, Seth, they're all around.
Uh, you know, what's jumped into my head is, um, I'm imagining, uh, kids at camp, and they have flags and they run around, and the flags remind them of the group that they're in and the fun they're having together, and hopefully the friendships they've needed together there.
And Camp will be really great without flags.
Uh, but as soon as we add flags and kids can run around with them, They remain symbols that, uh, kids, and when they grow to adults and adults feel connected to for years, if not, in fact, their entire lives.
Now you've been involved in a number of communities, obviously, over the years.
Do you have a symbol that is particularly meaningful to you and representing the communities that you've been at? Well, I wrote about in the book how I served in the US P score back when I was in my twenties.
And, uh, you know, the piece USB score is special and that it's a part of the US Federal Government that goes overseas, but we're not there to, um, defend America militarily or develop economic opportunities.
Uh, peaceful volunteers show up ostensibly to, uh, share American culture where people wanna learn it, learn about other cultures where others are willing to share it, and then to help in whatever material ways we're invited to help with.
In my case, I was working on, uh, health issues in Northern Zambia.
And I remember, uh, after leaving my family and, uh, selling my car and packing my things and getting onto a plane to fly to Africa.
Uh, I did training for weeks and weeks and weeks, which included learning a language.
I literally didn't know the name of when I landed in the country.
And at some point, uh, before four, I would be placed in a village, but after I completed the training, there was a ceremony where someone from the state department came and, uh, swore us in his peace corps volunteers.
And in that ceremony, uh, we were each handed a pin with a peace corps logo on it.
That we could do with as we please because it's not required to wear it.
And I know that you can buy those pins online very inexpensively, but that, uh, pin, we called it a token.
It was a type of symbol.
That symbol handed to me by a state person, um, there in Zambia after I had really committed my life to do this challenging thing, was really meaningful because it demarked my transition from a trainee to now a peace corps volunteer who's gonna go out in the world and try to make a difference with, all the skills that I've been given.
You one of the things that you say in the book is that the symbols shouldn't be too literal.
What do you mean by that? Uh, symbols, while they can be literal, the symbols that usually resonate with us are a little bit abstract because it allows us to interpret them in ways that, uh, fit us.
And so one of the examples I use is when we look at military, uh, symbols where they're eagles and arrows, anchors, if you serve in the military, very seldom do you touch an anchor or, uh, fly with an eagle or maybe even use an arrow, but these are all symbols that are used to communicate something.
And there's a reason why are fairly abstract because not a lot of uh navy people use an anchor, right, day to day.
So when we are thinking about what are symbols that we're gonna use in our communities with our members, we don't need to be too literal about what do we physically use Uh, we can choose things that reference, uh, the values that we have and imbue them with meaning to be that symbol.
I'll give you an example that's coming to my mind.
Um, at one point, I did something that helped, um, something in the police department here in the Bay Area, And so over lunch, an officer in this police department handed me a challenge coin.
And for those who don't know a challenge coin or especially printed coins that usually have the identity of a certain organization, and they're usually only given um, only, uh, to honor someone in respect and acknowledge that they've been helpful to that organization.
And I didn't even know he had a challenge going to give.
I didn't ask for it.
I didn't know you I don't even know if you can't ask for a challenge coin.
I remember when he handed me that challenge coin that was really meaningful because I understood that was a symbol of the support that I had given that organization, and he was expressing his appreciation.
And it was abstract because that coin is good to buy nothing.
And, uh, literally, I wasn't helping him with coins.
Right? But it still is a cherished symbol of the relationship we have and the support he recognized I gave the organization.
You used the word token a moment ago, and a token is a particular type of symbol.
Can you explain what you mean by token? Yeah.
In this context, a token is a symbol that we give to another person that they can carry with them to remind them of our relationship.
And, uh, many, many, many organizations use tokens, but they may not recognize that they're doing that.
Um, so for example, at Camp, uh, kids come home with all kinds of badges and art projects.
When I came back from the P score with that pin of the P score logo, that was a token given to me at my initiation.
These are important to consider when we're in leadership roles in the community because very often people long for a token.
And if we don't provide them, uh, they'll invent something and make that a token, which isn't necessarily bad, but then we don't have any control over what that is, and we lose the opportunity to make that special.
And a token can literally be anything.
It's fairly important that it doesn't have a lot of monetary value.
And the reason is tokens aren't valuable because they have trade value.
They have value because of the meaning.
So if I were to give you a gold bar as a token gift seth for working with me and helping me reach bigger audiences with the the wisdom that I've written in the books, you might appreciate the token, but it's kinda weird because that gold brick is worth annold tens of thousands of dollars.
Whereas if instead, you know, I were to give you a set of candle holders.
And I said, Seth, we've talked a great amount of time about how to bring people together in ways to knit them together, help them feel seen, heard, and welcome.
And I said, I hope you use these candle holders on many tables, uh, across the country when you sit down with friends.
So they'll light that conversation and made the conversation just a little bit more powerful and fun.
Then even though those candle holders are worth a lot less than the gold brick, my guess is that would be more meaningful to you.
It would definitely be even more meaningful.
Uh, I don't wanna discourage you from sending me gold bricks if that's what you wanna do.
Yeah.
I'm not planning to order.
What do you worry about that? Uh, let's well, and one of the ways where you can see that these tokens have a lot of meaning, you know, you had mentioned the military for earlier.
For example, that, uh, there are, you know, medals and things like that, and you can see the uproar that there is when somebody, you know, wears one of those tokens that they haven't actually earned.
I mean, it can be quite a quite a scandal, and that's precisely because of this meaning that you're talking about.
Right? Yeah.
It's really hard to overstate actually the importance of these symbols.
Obviously, there there's a bell curve of how important they are, but they are very, very sacred symbols.
And if somebody violates how sacred they are, uh, there will be consequences.
There's no question about that.
The conversation isn't about who violates them and how do they violate them and how we enforce that.
What I want those of us who are trying to bring people together understand is there's a huge opportunity to give people what they already want.
You know, most people I know have some kind of tokens sitting on their Bureau reminding them of a relationship that's important to them.
So we're bringing people together and we're creating relationships and important to them.
We can give them tokens.
And quite frankly, a token can be something that we use regularly.
If you and I go on a hike together or we hike a long way together, maybe I give you the compass that I used to navigate us.
You could buy another compass in less than five minutes, but that compass will be more important to you if I, uh, share it with you telling you I'm sharing this with you so that you'll remember this time that we spent together.
Okay.
So you're saying that anything can be a token, but I assume that there are some things that make a token a good token.
Right? I mean, what makes for a good token? So the most important thing to remember, Seth, is the power of the token comes in the meaning again, not in the material value.
And I see this mistaken so much when people are trying to use tokens.
So for example, a lot of organizations, be they nonprofits buying gifts for volunteers or for profits buying thank you gifts, they'll have stuff made with the logo of the organization on it.
And very often, if there's a lot of enthusiasm for the organization, there's a lot of enthusiasm to get those items.
And I've seen people hand out these items either really freely.
Like, here you go.
Everybody can have one.
Right? Which steals the opportunity of saying, Hey, we're giving you this sweatshirt, or I'm giving you this jacket because you volunteered with us, and I want you to have this to remember your connection to us and as a small token for your time with us.
And just that less than three seconds it takes to say, this is a token of our appreciation.
I want you to take this to remind yourself of how you're connected to us, radically changes the value of that piece of clothing with a logo on it.
The other thing that I've seen happen is people mistaken these items, which are usually not very expensive, for a trade or a transactional relationship.
It's like, oh, because you volunteered five days with us, I'm gonna give you a sweatshirt.
Well, I didn't volunteer to get a sweatshirt, and sweatshirts are worth $30, 50 bucks.
And my volunteer time is worth way more than that.
So if you frame it at all as I'm giving this to you because so it's like a trade, then all of a sudden, it can actually toxify that relationship and erode the connection I feel.
But if you give me the same sweatshirt, say Charles, we're so appreciative you've volunteered for five days, please have this sweatshirt as a token of our appreciation to remind you that you have spent your time with us and that we appreciate you.
Boom.
Now that's an actually additive, uh, gift.
And that's the difference between offering something because of its meaning and something because of its trade value.
Is there a difference between tokens that only have private meeting? So, for example, uh, I can think of a gift that my grandfather gave me that means something to me, but wouldn't mean anything to anybody else if they saw it.
Versus the token that has a public meaning that says something to a larger audience.
For example, you know, the military insignia or some of these badges or or things like that.
And do you need to be thinking about that when you're thinking about tokens? The whole value of a private token is just what it means to you and the relationships that it came out of.
When it's for public display, it becomes a sort of credential, and that's not bad, but then we need to be very careful about who we're giving it to because not just a matter of that we're connected to someone, but it's somewhat earned.
And we just have to be more careful about, um, what are the standards that need to be met to then get that token, and and a military badge is definitely an example of that.
And then How careful we are about handing it out so that we don't dilute then the meaning of that credential by giving it out, like, too broadly.
You know, one of the places I think about this, uh, I worked for a long time in the radio industry.
And, you know, we give out swag, right? T shirts, uh, with the station's logo on it.
And I think we often thought about swag in the wrong terms.
I think we often thought about it as, hey, we're giving this to people so that they can advertise the station, and we basically want them to spread the word.
And I think it would have been a lot more powerful if we were frankly just a little bit more selective about how we gave that away to people who somehow demonstrated that they were real fans of the station, and it was a gift of appreciation.
And it was, like you said, it was a token.
It was a thank you for being a fan of the station, and we want to acknowledge that relationship that that you have.
You know, do you ever see people misusing tokens in All the time.
Disemplate of that? Missusing it in that they're leaving a lot of power on the table.
And in your example, Seth, you can do both.
You can print some t shirts in white and that goes to anybody who's shouting at you in the crowd.
And then you can print the same t shirt in black and maybe the DJ's wear that and the staff at the radio station wear those, and that you make sure that the only people who get those are people that you know are a fan.
By whatever standard you're holding, right, whatever constitutes a fan for you.
Quite frankly, it's no more expensive because you're printing t shirts.
Right? But now you've imbued those black t shirts with a lot more value than the white t shirts.
And you can change it any way you want.
But the point is you can do both and, uh, leverage the power of a token.
Alright.
No.
We just gotta make sure we load the right color t shirt into the t shirt cannon before we shoot it off the stage at the concert.
Well, so there's a good example.
You don't wanna want to load the black t shirts into the t shirt cannon because you're not selecting who gets it.
Right? But you could have an intern stand at a gate and anybody who can, you know, name the lineup of the radio station Right? Maybe they get a black t shirt.
What practical advice do you have for people who are managing a community, leading a community, or maybe trying to build a community from scratch? What should they be thinking about and and what practical advice would you give them when it comes to creating tokens? I like to keep tokens really inexpensive because then the real value is clearly in the meaning and not, you know, how fancy the item is.
Um, I bring things back from my travels that I know cannot be purchased nearby.
They're usually handcrafted.
And we can think about where are the points of transition for members when someone becomes a visitor to become a full member, which means maybe they attended to number number meetings.
Maybe they signed up to volunteer.
Like, whatever that is, Make sure that there's a token that you can say, well, now that you've crossed this line, we want you to have this to remind you that, uh, we want you as part of this community and that you're participating in a way that enriches all of us.
And then when there are there are milestones, one year, five years whatever it is, it's nice that someone gets a token just to acknowledge that they've continued to be committed.
So in your podcasting group, right, there are people who have been helping other podcasters for years and years.
I can imagine it'd be really powerful if they got a token piece of equipment that honored their commitment to other podcasters after so many years.
And then another token that people really appreciate is when they've accomplished something that they've been working toward, and, uh, they want peers to understand the depth of that, uh, commitment.
To recognize that, and you can provide a token for that.
It can even be, um, a piece of equipment that was used in that endeavor or a piece of clothing that they can wear for the next endeavor.
Something that they can remind them that other people in their field are watching and recognizing that they're growing.
You know, as you mentioned that, I'm thinking about the coins they give out, for example, in alcoholics anonymous to recognize people that, hey, this is for the one day of being sober.
This is for one year of being sober.
And Right.
I know that those are really, really powerful for people.
Mhmm.
Yeah.
They're a reminder of the commitment and a reminder of their connection to the other members who are supporting them in their commitment.
And the great thing about those coins is you can keep in your pocket, and you can touch them, and you'll be reminded every time you touch it.
That's tokens and symbols.
And, uh, this is a short conversation because this is actually one of the shorter chapters of the book, but We have now made it through six of your seven principles.
I can't wait till we get to the seventh because the seventh is all about inner rings, and that's gonna be a really interesting conversation.
So I'm looking forward to that.
Thanks, Charles.
Well, it's wonderful to do this with you, Seth
